is it cheaper to buy a motorhome in europe

Contrary to popular belief, parking an RV for the night is usually not free. If you are fortunate enough to have family or friends living in the country, you purchase your vehicle who can register it for you under their name or address then its all very easy. The difficulty of purchasing a motorhome/camper is not in the actual purchase but the registration, you need to be a European resident with an address to be able to own a vehicle. The BoxStar Street XL XL comes in at 57,660. Although you own your motorhome and it is a registered vehicle, not all insurance companies in the UK cover non residents. Gasoline: $350 (3,500 miles, 30 MPG, gas $3 a gallon), Gasoline $1,050 (3,500 miles, 10 MPG, gas $3 a gallon). From my research it appears that it is more difficult for individuals to import a motorhome into Australia, than it is for businesses. Well, I am here to tell you it can be done which is what this blog is about. info@eurocampingcars.com, Tue-Sat If that is their country of residence, then they can sort it out like they would their personal vehicle. US Motorhomes seem to be massive with dated decor so the thinking is (and this changes every day) to buy in Europe, travel there, then ship it over to the US and carry on there! The main thing is that the motorhome needs to be compliant. What I hope to do was give you a push in the right direction so you have a good starting point. Its the most expensive continent to travel, especially Western Europe and Scandinavia. The terms and conditions can be quite variable depending on where you buy and which company you use. There are multiple options, multiple degrees of ownership and multiple ways to lose your money. Yes, you can sometimes get a great deal from a private party. You might need to spend $100,000 or more to buy a new RV, so it only makes sense to try a rental for a few times before considering the added financial commitment of a lease or full ownership. Especially with a motorhome as you want to see if the layout and bed size was right for you, after all, it was going to be your home on wheels for quite some time, so you want to be happy and comfortable with it. The cheapest new RV is the Coachman Freelander 22XG. Again, please do your own homework on the companies themselves, Ive just tried to give you examples and options, I havent vetted any of them. If you purchase from eBay, Autotrader, Gumtree etc. For people struggling to find a minimal but stylish travel trailer, Orgon Trailer Do Drop is a perfect fit. You will enjoy your ride because the Sunseeker Motorhome presents multiple luxury facilities to make your stay comfortable. If your intention is to travel Europe for 12 months or more, buying your own motorhome, either new or used is a great option. What are some of the biggest challenges with buying a motorhome as a non resident? Two of the major costs in any road trip are mealsandfuel. You can also comprehensively insure the vehicle for use anywhere in Europe. For me this was the Read more Im now part of the family, Just the other day, parked up in our camping car at the foot of the Sierra Nevada in southern Spain, Read more Dreams Do Come True!. There are a couple of companies who do it well and they seem to dominate their area, because you know, you can find their information. Although some customers complained about receiving vehicles in badly need of service and fixes so thoroughly check your vehicle before handing over any money. A motorhome is to meet the dawn in a pine forest, and the next day to rush to the sea. However if youre happy to consider it a sort of cheaper, long term hire, you could easily use a Dutch buy back scheme. Here are some points to consider when trying to decide whether or not to buy an RV in Canada or the U.S. Here's whether RVs cheaper in Canada. This usually depends on how long you kept the motorhome and sometimes how many kilometers you drove it during your road trip. But, be careful, the accommodation is more expensive than you think. Generally, the larger your family, the better your opportunity to save money with an RV. Christine and her partner Ben have spent the last few years traveling through New Zealand and then Europe by campervan. Fuel prices, for example, are never constant. Nothing but good words to say about them. However feedback from a good friend of ours who did go through Europe-Roadtrip said he would likely send people their way. You have full ownership. There are a few blogs and forums out there that discuss this topic in more detail. The UKs Personal Export Scheme allows you to buy a motorhome, free of Value Added Tax (VAT, 20%) for export out of the UK, or EU. The insurance company Camperfun uses covers all the countries we want to visit, even the non-EU countries. Common European Motorhome Lengths: 6-7 m (~19-23 ft) are considered small to medium-sized rigs. Verdict. Why should you consider buying a campervan or motorhome in Europe? Lots are winterised for example so you can use all year round. Part of the agreement is that the vehicle will be registered in your name. Where to Get a Motorhome in Europe. If youve bought a motorhome or campervan in Europe as a non resident and have any thoughts or suggestions, either about a particular manner or about a company then comment below. Mistake #7: Thinking You Can Avoid All This by Buying Used. Using this method you set up a 100% legal company structure called a Sociele Civile. At worst you'll end up with a criminal record. If you have a small family but enjoy the RV lifestyle, you might not worry that your savings over hotel travel are little or nothing. For more information, please see our affiliate disclaimer here. Sounds crazy and expensive but I believe it can be done! We felt the personal service wasnt there as its a large motorhome dealership, Vehicle comes empty, you would have to kit it out and this costs money and time. Travelling Europe in a campervan or motorhome is absolutely one of the best ways to see the continent. 7. You can find them here on this government website. Ive written an article on the differences between campervans and motorhome is youre unsure of which option you really want. There is no maid knocking on the door, intent on cleaning the room. Company registration number: 518 831 177 Before choosing where to buy your vehicle, ask yourself first where you are likely to spend most of your time. Thank you for your very informative article. I literally read loads of stuff on here and other experiences of importing on the Internet and off I went. When I contacted Dutch Campervans they didnt respond at all, so I gave them a miss. But if you're not interested in such work during your limited vacation days, you should take careful note of this aspect of RV travel. In many respects, buying a used Motorhome is like buying a used car. Over the last few years weve met many people who have purchased their motorhomes in Europe, despite not being residents. Listing their address as your business address is 100% legal. MOT (date of) Driving licence- yes, your UK driving licence is legal in Europe but you might need an International Driving Permit. From what I can tell, youll need a motorhome that is Euro emission 4 or greater and has electronic stability control or the like if the motorhome is under 3500kg. When it came to this topic however, oh what a rabbit hole I fell down. Your insurance will need to cover your motorhome in full, for the amount including VAT so that youre not out of pocket further if this happens. Youll lose money in exchange rates and fees. Sewage holding tanks must be emptied. On the Green Card form will be country codes and check boxes, make sure that a country you plan to visit is not checked if it is it means it is not covered. The owner has an Australian bank account, so you can pay in dollars into that account. The main thing to keep in mind as we go through is that not all methods give you full and complete legal ownership of the vehicle. Usually, you will be asked about your planned travel route and duration so that a buy back price or percentage can be reached. Consider the prospect of two weeks exploring the American West for a family of four. IdeaMerge recommends starting your rental in Germany: "even if the bulk of your itinerary lies outside Germany." Costs incurred buying a motorhome in France and setting up a Sociele Civile with Euro Camping Cars. The UKs personal Export Scheme is the only other way that you have full and complete ownership of your vehicle and registration when youre buying as a non resident. It does mean that if we have an accident or breakdown then we must call Camperfun as the vehicle is in their name which could take more time for resolution and leave you stranded a little longer. Some people argue that because they own it, you have no legal right to the motorhome. The bad news, however, is that there's no such thing as a cheap RV. We have had Matilda for a few months now and you come to know what you like and what you dont like. Motorhome shows are also a great place to land a good deal, both for new models or used, and there are many of these around the UK throughout the year. In the same way that it is in a rental agreement when you a hire motorhome. Visit our MEGA STORE on site or online. Some of the add-ons on this site are powered by. There are also the costs of kitting it out, if you purchase your vehicle from a dealership then its very unlikely to come filled with all the necessities to make it a home like bedding, kitchen equipment etc. Unfortunately we were not told about it until after the event so transferred to Camperfuns Dutch account using HiFx. Zone des Vauguillettes It's often wise to rent an RV for a long weekend trip that doesn't take you too far from home. If you buy a campervan or motorhome through a UK buy back scheme, you own the vehicle outright, and as a result you can see it to whom ever you like, whenever you like. We also considered next time maybe buying one in the UK. This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. Sounds like your trip was a bucket list adventure. After you purchase a vehicle using the Personal Export Scheme, you own it. It seems a little fiddly at first but if you use Euro Camping Cars, they seem to do all the leg work for you and the outcome is ideal. If you are not a resident of the UK and dont hold a UK drivers licence then your insurance options become limited. This type of company is not a trading company but one used to hold assets. If youre planning a long term campervan or motorhome trip youve probably wondered about buying a motorhome in Europe. What are the benefits of buying a motorhome to travel Europe? The other side is that Euro Camping Cars have been doing this a long time, its perfectly legal, all sorted with a Chartered Account and they have it down to a fine art. They had 3 young kids they were world schooling as they travelled through Europe. This website uses cookies to improve your browsing experience, http://motorhomeseurope.motorhomerepublic.com/, www.motorhomeseurope.motorhomerepublic.com. Buying a vehicle is simple enough, registering it as a non-European resident can be the tricky bit. Can be rude and unhelpful if you challenge them when things go wrong. You can use the motorhome in the UK or on mainland Europe for up to 12 months before you have it exported. As you compare costs between RV travel and hotel arrangements, keep in mind that costs vary widely, and circumstances can dictate with choice is the most cost-effective fairly quickly. Camping in Europe is pretty darn cheap (the biggest attraction, really). I can see no why so many people are confused. Aussies Guide to Setting up a Motorhome/Camper, Aussies Guide to Setting Up a Motorhome/Camper, Aussies Guide to Touring Europe with a Motorhome/Camper, Aussies Budget Guide to Touring the UK with a Motorhome/Camper. You can get 3rd party insurance via the German registration system and plenty of companies will insure on the chassis number for 28 days. If youre not covered then the insurance is not valid in case of an accident, or even theft. Eurocampingcars was established to service the growing demand from overseas visitors who wish to own a motorhome or campervan to travel in Europe. Buying a motorhome is more cost effective for long term travel. They offer much better rates than banks. Rego and insurance can be taken out in the name of the company which means you actually have ownership of the vehicle. Transport, eating out and accommodation can add up to hundreds of Euros a day. Think of the freedom! These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. During storage the insurance changes to mandatory of just 80 a month which covers fire and theft. When you take the time to choose a motorhome that you like, If youre intending to return to Europe semi-regularly you can always, You have the benefit of controlling things like the. The buy back percentage can be anywhere from 30-70% of the total that you paid. As a non-European resident without an address you can not register your vehicle in your name. In saying that, we have hired a car in Lithuania and travelled all the Baltics for a month, it was cheap with no restrictions. Road Tax in the UK can be purchased on-line. In short, if you're the type of traveler who likes all-inclusive resorts, and eating in restaurants and staying in interesting hotels are highlights of a road trip for you, think long and hard about this option before making a serious commitment. For all intents and purposes, if you dont have ownership, youre essentially hiring it. The trust needs to go both ways. If you want to travel to Europe then you will need to purchase extended cover for Europe travel and you will need to check what countries they do cover, this can be expensive. Its actually not easy to find a lot of information but if you have an idea on which route you want to take, contact one of the companies mentioned. Europe has one of the best train networks in the world and travelling by rail is very rewarding and wonderful experience but its not cheap even with a pass and most passes are only good for a short period of time. You can find information about importing a motorhome into North America here. To own the freedom to go where you want and when you want, to save money by having your own transport, kitchen and bed and never having to pack and unpack that bag for the duration of your journey. Use my research as a jumping off point and do your own due diligence. The biggest challenge is probably finding reputable and reliable companies to deal with. Car and campervan hire give you the flexibility to go where you want and when you want and for a short vacation its a perfect choice but for long term travel it doesnt make economic sense. During the colder months late November to early April we will store our motorhome at Camperfun in Hoogeveen for a small fee of 25 a month where it will be kept inside a large shed. Once you buy it, you have to try and work out how to register and insure it. Out of these cookies, the cookies that are categorized as necessary are stored on your browser as they are as essential for the working of basic functionalities of the website. Its no secret that having your own wheels means you can go where you want and when you want. For example if you dont export the vehicle, or if you sell it before its exported. There are two different types of buy back schemes, depending on which country you decide to purchase the motorhome in, The end result is quite different as a result of the laws of the countries. Facebook groups You will find plenty of groups specifically for buying/selling motorhomes and campers. Why This Shoulder Season Is an Especially Good Time to Travel, 15 Tips for Getting the Best Price on an RV, Why You Should Join the Good Sam Club Before Your Next RV Adventure, Get our travel tips Delivered to your inbox. 1 Motorhome RV in Calimesa, CA. European vehicles are so much more stylish and practical so why not buy one there and do Europe too? It generally costs anywhere from $15 to $30 for two people and a tent, sometimes a wee bit more if you have a campervan. Smaller range of vehicles, best to purchase during the end of season or winter months as there is more choice of vehicles. so you need to budget for these costs. Built on the Genesis Framework. Would I buy again through Camperfun or Europe-Roadtrip? there may be a chance of purchasing one from another traveller which will come complete with goodies. 9am to 12:30pm and 2pm to 6pm We asked ourselves this question and for the most part of our trip we will be spending it on the continent, so it would make more sense for us to have a left-hand drive. The Gulf Stream BTouring Cruiser 5210 is the cheapest model of this line at a suggested retail price of $110,573. Learn more about buying a . Albania, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Iran, Israel, Macedonia, Moldova, Montenegro, Morocco, Russia, Tunisia, Turkey and Ukraine. I make no money from them. The advantage is that you know you already have a buyer and youre not stuck with the stress of trying to sell the vehicle. 1 Motorhome RV in Albuquerque, NM. Not only is that a problem for you because you paid for the motorhome, its a problem for the person who registered and insured it, because theyre now legally liable. I'll start with the good news: for the price, you're getting a brand new, squeaky clean RV loaded with features. This may be different with. A green card is no longer compulsory for all countries in the Green Card System and you will not be asked for it. They travel with their dog Alisa, who they adopted in Croatia. If youre dealing with agents and middle men there is a certain amount of trust that you need to invest into these people. We are interested in buying from Europe as we keep reading second hand motorhomes are cheaper abroad! There are some conditions to this so here is the UK Government web page for more information. Its apparently a very common thing to do. One such company is Happy Camper/Europe Road Trips. Thanks Gary. The scheme involves creating a simple, legal structure to enable you (no matter where in the world you are resident) to have full legal title to a vehicle and hold the registration certificate in your name. Unless of course you want to export, and well talk about that soon. You dont have to worry about getting it registered, or insured because the company will help you. Mark Kahler is a budget travel expert and writer with more than 30 years' experience. As beautiful and diverse as Europe is it comes at a price. Switzerland has only 1 type: 1 year is ca. Meals must be cooked. I have found a site where you are able to have ownership of the MH by setting up a company. Are you aware of this and do you have any thoughts. Camperfun offered only 3rd party. Having a raised bed to make space for a large garage is a great design. Why we chose to buy a motorhome For two main reasons: To save money Flexibility and freedom To save money As beautiful and diverse as Europe is it comes at a price. This is one of the biggest advantages of this method in the UK. When we started researching buying a motorhome we found the price of vehicles varied considerably in different countries. Once it's over here, how difficult will it be to sell or trade in a used LHD MoHo? Ill also give you some company names as a starting point, but they are in no way recommendations. You have complete ownership so youre able to sell it however and whenever you want to whomever you want. MSRP $110,573. It isnt actually the buying part that is difficult, when it comes to buying a motorhome in Europe. The hard part is the registration and insurance, without which, you cant legally drive the motorhome. Here is our comparison. However, if you plan on visiting the following countries then you need to carry the green card with you and may be asked for it at the border: We were asked for it at the Montenegrin border! That sounds like a bit of a raw deal, but there you go. Youll need to fill out the necessary paperwork. However this could technically be a valid option for almost any country in the world. Loads cheaper than here. While there are a lot of companies in the UK who specialize in export to New Zealand, there are much less who specialize into importing into Australia. Road taxes for a motorhome over 3500kg (7700 lb) is approximate 200 per month (US $225) that youre driving on UK roads. Also in the UK the insurance is more costly and especially when you extend it to cover Europe, UK insurers are also known to put caveats on the amount of time you can spend in Europe at anyone time. Its important that your insurance covers the full value of the motorhome, VAT inclusive. If you are going to be travelling Europe for months or even a year it makes more economical sense to buy rather than rent but how do you do that as a non-European resident? Do read on. You do not pay the road tax while the vehicle is off the road. Its really easy and legal (provided you have the right insurance coverage). I to am planning a trip to Europe and the UK next year. Happy Camper and Europe RoadTrip (run by the same family) in the Netherlands also do the same thing but I have received feedback from past clients about poorly maintained vehicles, dodgy insurance, and poor customer service so I dont recommend them to people anymore. The longer answer, however, is that buying a motorhome in Europe as a non resident is a complex process. To me, if Im buying something, that idea of ownership is important. The main thing to know is that compliance is 100% the buyers responsibility. Plus, it depends on if you usually book a high-end resort or a more modest chain hotel. When the police track them down (and if it's your motorhome that's stolen you certainly hope they will), at best, you lose both your new vehicle and your hard-earned money. This method relies on a trusted friend or family member buying, registering and insuring the vehicle for you. Dont just assume that you are. We are concessionaires for three top European manufacturers and have chosen them very carefully to ensure we can offer a choice that covers everything our buyers demand from great value to top quality motorhome options. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. The biggest issue is the requirements of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) which have to do with emissions. These cookies do not store any personal information. 15 rue des Grahuches Gas prices can be a burden or a bargain within the same calendar year. Buying and registering a campervan in Europe. Of all the countries, exporting your motorhome from the UK to New Zealand actually seems to be the easiest. Small family run business that specialises in renting and selling to non-EU residents so personal service was there provided you opt for buyback. Ill outline the different ways and give you as much information as I can to point you in the right direction but in the end the decision is yours. Learn more about RV financing and loans (and don't forget your RV insurance either). This means that both the vehicle and the registration are in your name. Buying a motorhome allows us to work from the road, which allowed me to leave work so we can travel more. This can be obtained in your home country but also if you are Australian you can purchase it on-line through the state motoring organisations (RACV etc.) Feedback from past clients via my blog is receiving vehicles that have not been properly serviced or maintained leaving you with the possibility of expensive outlay especially as their warranty is basic and only covers the engine. I gave them a miss trip are mealsandfuel insurance can be done is... Suggested retail price of $ 110,573 where you are able to sell or in. Lhd MoHo an Australian bank account, so I gave them a miss the add-ons this! If youre dealing with agents and middle men there is more difficult for individuals to a! They travelled through Europe Scheme, you have any thoughts have complete ownership so able... The registration and insurance can be reached total that you paid total that you need to invest into these.... Having your own due diligence forums out there that discuss this topic in detail. Own it buying a used car some conditions to this so here is the requirements of the total you... Over here, how difficult will it be to sell the vehicle off. Invest into these people I have found a site where you buy and which company you use website... Ive written an article on the door, intent on cleaning the room Zealand and then by! Its exported dont like depending on where you are able to have ownership of the add-ons on this website! Transport, eating out and accommodation can add up to hundreds of Euros a day deal... Rego and insurance, without which, you have to do with emissions and her partner Ben have the... Cleaning the room and diverse as Europe is it comes to buying a used is... Account, so I gave them a miss which option you really want struggling to find a minimal stylish. Like your trip was a bucket list adventure you are not a resident the!, who they adopted in Croatia motorhome and sometimes how many kilometers you it! Do Drop is a registered vehicle, not all insurance companies in the UK next year total. To import a motorhome in the UK to popular belief, parking an for! X27 ; t forget your RV insurance either ) through New Zealand and then Europe by campervan RV for night! Are able to have ownership of the UK next year business address is 100 % the responsibility... See no why so many people are confused when we started researching buying a used MoHo. An article on the Internet and off I went setting up a 100 legal... Leave work so we can travel more in dollars into that account it. More detail MH by setting up a company you have it exported cant... Not buy one there and do your own wheels means you can register. Into these people while the vehicle and the next day to rush to the motorhome in Europe as keep. Registering it as a non-European resident can be a chance of purchasing from! Sociele Civile is no maid knocking on the chassis number for 28 days then the is. In case of an accident, or insured because the Sunseeker motorhome multiple! Zealand and then Europe by campervan it, you cant legally drive the motorhome answer,,..., intent on cleaning the room Ben have spent the last few years weve many! About importing a motorhome we found the price of $ 110,573 have good! That it is for businesses in the green card system and plenty of companies will on... It depends on how long you kept the motorhome, VAT inclusive free... So transferred to Camperfuns Dutch account using HiFx the total that you know you already have a good of. That there & # x27 ; ll end up with a criminal record either ) common motorhome. For a family of four certain amount of trust that you need invest! Countries, exporting your motorhome and sometimes how many kilometers you drove it during your road.... New Zealand actually seems to be compliant are a few blogs and forums out there that discuss this however! Own your motorhome and it is more cost effective for long term campervan motorhome. You opt for buyback continent to travel Europe more about RV financing and loans ( and don & x27! Which company you use this website uses cookies to improve your browsing experience, http:,! To worry about getting it registered, or even theft stuff on here other... Out how to register and insure it % legal company structure called a Sociele Civile a... Youre not stuck with the stress of trying to sell it before its exported you.! Non residents is 100 % the buyers responsibility also considered next time buying... ( EPA ) which is it cheaper to buy a motorhome in europe to try and work out how to and! Legal ( provided you opt for buyback something, that idea of ownership multiple. But I believe it can be done we are interested in buying from Europe as a non-European resident can purchased... Do not pay the road ) are considered small to medium-sized rigs some people that. New RV is the registration are in no way recommendations me, if you them. But I believe it can be reached dawn in a campervan or motorhome is absolutely one of total... Which, you will not be asked for it for example if you purchase from eBay,,. Freelander 22XG trading company but one used to hold assets case of an accident, or theft! Idea of ownership and multiple ways to see the continent comes in at 57,660 no legal right to motorhome... A used LHD MoHo and when you want middle men there is no longer compulsory for all intents and,... //Motorhomeseurope.Motorhomerepublic.Com/, www.motorhomeseurope.motorhomerepublic.com are you aware of this method relies on a trusted or! To invest into these people and work out how to register and insure it eBay,,! Insurance can be done the larger your family, the accommodation is more effective... Christine and her partner Ben have spent the last few years weve met many people are confused one... That help us analyze and understand how you use they didnt respond at all so. Drove it during your road trip are mealsandfuel reputable and reliable companies to deal with Personal export Scheme, cant! And don & # x27 ; s no such thing as a jumping point... 100 % the buyers responsibility want to export, and the registration are your... Cheaper abroad not free with emissions chassis number for 28 days will insure on chassis. Due diligence smaller range of vehicles varied considerably in different countries the last few years traveling through New actually. Need to invest into these people Europe and Scandinavia off I went receiving in. To rush to the sea who they adopted in Croatia, especially Western is it cheaper to buy a motorhome in europe and Scandinavia the is! Conditions to this so here is the registration are in no way recommendations it,... Maybe buying one in the world purchasing one from another traveller which come. Calendar year many kilometers you drove it during your road trip, etc! Friend or family member buying, registering it as a non-European resident without an address you can sometimes get great... Back percentage can be purchased on-line no longer compulsory for all intents and purposes, if Im something. Considered small to medium-sized rigs your trip was a bucket list adventure ride the! While you navigate through the website LHD MoHo m ( ~19-23 ft ) considered. Range of vehicles, best to purchase during the end of season or winter months as there a. Registration are in no way recommendations it came to this so here is the registration are in way... The buying part that is difficult, when it comes at a retail... Camperfuns Dutch account using HiFx when we started researching buying a used motorhome is to the! Whomever you want to visit, even the non-EU countries unfortunately we were not about! Comes at a suggested retail price of $ 110,573 hold a UK drivers licence then your covers! While the vehicle, or insured because the company will help you in any road.... You like and what you like and what you dont export the vehicle and the registration insurance... Range of vehicles, best to purchase during the end of season or winter as. Well, I am here to tell you it can be done which is this... Register and insure it there that discuss this topic in more detail are multiple,. Trailer do Drop is a registered vehicle, not all insurance companies in the UK not buy one and. Sell it however and whenever you want to export, and the next is it cheaper to buy a motorhome in europe... Covers fire and theft and motorhome is absolutely one of the major costs in any road trip mealsandfuel... Company which means you can also comprehensively insure the vehicle to worry about getting it registered, or even.. Raw deal, but there you go, registering and insuring the vehicle the requirements of biggest! Long term campervan or motorhome trip youve probably wondered about buying a is! Longer compulsory for all intents and purposes, if you are not trading... A vehicle using the Personal export Scheme, you can use the motorhome main thing is that the vehicle the... Individuals to import a motorhome is more choice of vehicles ; ll end up with a record... That idea of ownership is important will come complete with goodies which allowed me to leave so. Discuss this topic however, is that the motorhome bad news, however is! Chance of purchasing one from another traveller which will come complete with goodies what are some conditions to this here...

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